Susan!

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that it's always an appropriate time to discuss Susan, but it's especially appropriate right now, because of a conversation I've been having with pencildragon11 about her AU LB Susanfic.

There's a bit with Susan being called to join them all at the end of LB by Father Time's horn, and when I expressed interest wrt Susan as the bearer of a horn herself, she said: I think it's getting to be my headcanon that Father Time's horn would call Susan wherever she was, but there were at least two horns in LB, and the urge to connect them to Susan was unbearable. (Also headcanon for me that King Frank's horn at the end is the same horn as Susan's, and that it's been around for ever, that Susan was the keeper of it for a time, and that her name became attached to it due to her fame.)

Which I think is AWESOME. It's one of those connective motifs that's there to be explored throughout the series but left without any internal commentary, but I think it could be fairly purposeful, given that we know Lewis loves his medieval literature and thus adventure symbolism and all that.

So, any thoughts on this?  I think it's especially interesting as a way of seeing Susan still connected to Narnia, or Narnia to her, no matter what decisions she makes regarding memory of Narnia.

Basically, let's talk about Susan headcanons and theories and problems.

Comments

[wingedflight21.livejournal.com]

Ok, wow, gorgeous idea. I can just see the conversation between Susan and King Frank. She'd wonder why he has her horn, he responds that it's his horn. Awkward silence. Gracious yet wistful acceptance.

Which also begs the question of whether the other Christmas Gifts were passed along, or whether it was merely the horn itself. And how did Frank get the horn?

(So many possibilities! How exciting!)

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

Which also begs the question of whether the other Christmas Gifts were passed along, or whether it was merely the horn itself.
Now THIS is interesting - there's that piece of fanon (definitely fueled by the PC movie) which has Rhindon becoming HUGELY important as not just a symbol but a literal connection to Peter, sometimes only really wieldable by him, sometimes passed along to Caspian etc.

But what if it was really the sword of the Kings (and Queens) of Narnia, not just beginning with Peter?

I think it's easiest to see the sword and the horn as passed along - mostly just 'cause the cordial is so finite, ultimately (and it's full when Lucy gets it), and the bow certainly seems to be something FC picks up somewhere (the whole 'you'll not easily miss' if you trust in the bow, though, suggests more magic that could make it an heirloom-y thing), and the dagger has always seemed (though maybe this again just owes to fanon largely only flailing about Rhindon) less special.

Any case, yes, I like this very much.

[wingedflight21.livejournal.com]

Yeah, just thinking it thought for the first time here, but Rhindon could very well be this not-quite-but-almost magic relic sword of the Kings and Queens of Narnia. This, it gains so much more symbolism in the passing off to Caspian. No longer merely accepted by the High King, but by Narnia herself.

As for the bow, I do like the idea of it being a relic as well. Doesnt even have to be magical, other than that it lasts so long. And I've always thought the cordial was in one of those magically-replenishing bottles, although at the same time it does seem like Lucy was first to receive it.

Then again, what of it's another relic, used up and refilled by FC for each re-gifting?

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

Oooh, and you know, this bestows a lot of importance on FC - even before Aslan, he is not only accepting the children as monarchs-to-be, but sort of blessing and almost crowning them in a way; like, if we take the gifts as relics used by every monarch, then when the Narnians see them with this stuff, it's very much a confirmation that they are the ones who will defeat the witch, because they ARE the kings and queens.

Another jumping in...

[snacky]

Rhindon could very well be this not-quite-but-almost magic relic sword of the Kings and Queens of Narnia.

Kind of off subject, but you could also tie it to the movie version of VDT and the Seven Swords of Narnia in a fic! I'd love to see something like that. :D

I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this..

[snacky]

the whole 'you'll not easily miss' if you trust in the bow, though, suggests more magic that could make it an heirloom-y thing

I always kind of thought all of the gifts were magic? Lucy's cordial, obviously, but Susan's bow specifically with those words, and I mean, how did a kid who never held a sword before learn to be use it and use it well enough to lead an army pretty much overnight? I always figured all of the gifts (including Lucy's dagger) had that kind of charm. I don't know if that's what they were going for in the LWW movie, but that's what I viewed that scene where they're practicing as, where Lucy throws the dagger and hits the target dead center - I felt it was kind of implying that was the case. Plus Lewis said several times how the air of Narnia affected all the kids from our world, made them... tougher, I guess, and more mature and competent than they would have been in England (I don't recall anything like that in HHB, so I think Narnia only works that way on the kids from our world, not from Calormen. :D)

Also, it means that being the only one without a Gift, Edmund probably had to work harder at learning to use a sword and a bow and a dagger than his siblings did.

I was always curious about the story behind Rhindon - it doesn't have a name in LWW, but Peter calls it Rhindon in PC - how did it get the name? I think there's a great fic waiting to be told about the name of the sword, and it could totally play into your speculation on it being the sword of the Kings and Queens of Narnia - was the sword always Rhindon, and Peter didn't learn about it and its history until into their reign? Or did something he do cause him to give the name to the Sword of Kings?

Re: I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this..

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

Oooh, you're right about Rhindon's name! PC he says something like 'this is the sword Rhindon and with it I killed the Wolf,' right? And I think I always conflated that with the fact that Aslan names him Sir Peter Wolfsbane in LWW and assumed in retrospect that that was when he named rhindon too, but - now I totally want that story.

You, Snacky, are an instigator, and I like it.

late to the party

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

I mean, unless maybe new bearers of the cordial have to journey to the land of the sun and fill it up again...

Personally I've always connected Lucy's dagger to Jadis's, maybe because they're both there on that night, and Jadis's turns into this relic thing at the end of the world, and Jadis and Lu are kind of foils for each other?

And now for the actual topic at hand...

[snacky]

I've been working on a post-LB fic where Susan's horn and bow survive the destruction because they ARE so tied to her, and they call out to her - she hears echoes of the horn, and dreams about them and tries to find where they could be.

My headcanon on Susan is that she doesn't forget Narnia, actually. It's just that Aslan told her she was too old for it, so she put it aside as "a game we used to play" in order to do what Aslan told her to do - focus on living in their world. I think Susan was not taken in the train crash because she WAS able to live in the real world, and the others were not able to let Narnia go, and were ill-suited for life in England, which was why they were called to Aslan's Country so young. I have to look at it this way or else I get all FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU at C.S. Lewis for writing it as punishment for her and Aslan as a petty, vindictive god - "You like things other than that world I kicked you out of twice, Susan? Bam! Killed everyone in your family AND your friends! How you like that lipstick NOW?"

I also like the idea that Caspian kept all the gifts and used them ceremonially once the Pevensies were never coming back - like for grand Narnian occasions, he carried the sword and the bow and the horn and the dagger and the cordial (and probably complained about how it was ridiculous to carry it all at the same time, lol, but the Narnians liked the tradition of it). And all the kings and queens after him did the same - keeping it for use strictly for ceremony.

I think that Susan's horn was probably used over the years, to call help to the King/Queen of Narnia at the time, and in England, the Pevensies, and especially Susan, could always feel its call. They didn't hear the actual horn, but more like an echo of it, and not quite a pull, but an odd sensation almost like an itch they couldn't scratch.

I think that Lucy tried to use the cordial sparingly during their reign, but she also went on a quest to refill it, once it got low. I think that is the reason that she rode to wars and battles though - so that she was always able to tend to the wounded quickly. I think Lucy traveled with a gryphon often, so she could get around Narnia and tend to the sick and injured quickly. One reason why it was a Golden Age - Lucy stopped a lot of people from dying.

Re: And now for the actual topic at hand...

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

I think that Susan's horn was probably used over the years, to call help to the King/Queen of Narnia at the time, and in England, the Pevensies, and especially Susan, could always feel its call. They didn't hear the actual horn, but more like an echo of it, and not quite a pull, but an odd sensation almost like an itch they couldn't scratch.
*cries* Oh man I want fic of this SO MUCH, beautifully bittersweet Pevensies are the BEST.

Anyway basically yes I accept all your headcanons :D And I also want that post-LB Susanfic.

Also this - One reason why it was a Golden Age - Lucy stopped a lot of people from dying. IS FABULOUS. omg how about the sort of plague-horror post-LWW. Everyone's freaking out because PEOPLE ARE DYING, what is this, so much sickness! And actually it's just normal life with a little less magic in it.

[snacky]

omg how about the sort of plague-horror post-LWW. Everyone's freaking out because PEOPLE ARE DYING, what is this, so much sickness! And actually it's just normal life with a little less magic in it.

Oooh, yes! I love it!

More head-canon: I think that the Narnians who survived the Telmarines are descendants of Narnians who had a drop of Lucy's cordial. I don't think it made them immortal, but I think it lengthened their lives, made them and their descendants heartier and quicker to heal from injuries and illnesses (the Queen's Touch).

I also have head-canon about Lucy that comes from PC, where Trumpkin says to her, "I suppose you're a great surgeon" - I always think, aside from the cordial, that Lucy was a skilled healer and learned herblore and how to set bones and stitch people up and so one, and that the people of Narnia consider "healer" a traditional title for a Narnian Queen - think Aragorn in LOTR ("the hands of a king are the hands of a healer") and I could see her being able to use folk remedies and herbs (like kingsfoil) with a skill unmatched by others.

[metonomia.livejournal.com]

THIS. IS. THE. BEST. And it totally makes sense - when Trufflehunter talks about the Beasts remembering- yes, it's special to them, but also there have been fewer generations than one might think, the memories have been passed down less times, gotten less confused.

And I COMPLETELY agree re: Lucy as a healer beyond the cordial. When Peter forbids her to carry it commonly to the wars, she doesn't throw a fit, she just learns to heal in other ways.

(And now i want the xover fit of Lucy in the Houses of Healing)

Re: And now for the actual topic at hand...

[wingedflight21.livejournal.com]

I think Susan was not taken in the train crash because she WAS able to live in the real world, and the others were not able to let Narnia go, and were ill-suited for life in England, which was why they were called to Aslan's Country so young.

Love the way you worded it, as if it isn't JUST that Susan chose to live in England, but rather that the others could NOT. Rather than placing the blame on Susan, it's almost a reward (albeit a bitter one) while the others are suddenly the ones who failed. A nice way of spinning that around.

And LOL at the thought of Caspian lugging about all the gifts and almost tripping over the sword and whoops almost dropped the cordial, wouldn't that be a disaster, and oh dear tipped the wrong way, now there are arrows EVERYWHERE.

[snacky]

And LOL at the thought of Caspian lugging about all the gifts and almost tripping over the sword and whoops almost dropped the cordial, wouldn't that be a disaster, and oh dear tipped the wrong way, now there are arrows EVERYWHERE.

This is exactly how I picture it. And he's all, "Can't we just put these in a case on display for people to look at, really?" But everyone is like, "no, no, traditional Gifts for the Kings and Queens, you must display them yourself!" All the Kings/Queens descended from Caspian feel the same. "This is SO heavy!"

[wingedflight21.livejournal.com]

It's one of the first lessons a new king or queen learns. That the relics sure are fantastic and symbolic and meaningful but OH DEAR are Rey a handful!

Re: And now for the actual topic at hand...

[pencildragon11.livejournal.com]

And Caspian carrying ALL the gifts, yes!!

Or maybe the cordial was self-refilling. Wouldn't stay full, but would never run out, either.

I love the idea that it was a Golden Age because of the cordial.

[snacky]

Poor Caspian, all that stuff was HEAVY. :D

That's a good theory, because MAGIC.

[pencildragon11.livejournal.com]

Oh, and maybe that's why he had the cordial with him on the Dawn Treader!

Depending on how Deep-Magicky we make it, ya can do ANYTHING.

But a story about a Quest to the Sun (the sun is a solid body, with fireplants and salamanders, I think) would be AWESOME.

Re: And now for the actual topic at hand...

[harmony-lover.livejournal.com]

My headcanon on Susan is that she doesn't forget Narnia, actually. It's just that Aslan told her she was too old for it, so she put it aside as "a game we used to play" in order to do what Aslan told her to do - focus on living in their world. I think Susan was not taken in the train crash because she WAS able to live in the real world, and the others were not able to let Narnia go, and were ill-suited for life in England, which was why they were called to Aslan's Country so young.

THIS. I'm still working out my headcanon for Susan (hence the lovely torture that is TSOTHF, and some of the musings that are in "Balancing"), but this is more or less what I've come up with. I can't imagine that Susan would actually forget Narnia. She was more capable of living in England than her siblings, more capable of living without Narnia than they were, and so she was left behind. That said, maybe she went about trying to live in England the wrong way - i. e., maybe part of her split with her siblings was that she took the wrong approach to trying to function without Narnia, tried to reject it at first instead of living with it as part of her, and so it took the train crash for her to sort out her priorities. Still, she could live with it, with being away from Narnia, and I'm not sure her siblings could.

Re: And now for the actual topic at hand...

[harmony-lover.livejournal.com]

Wow. That was painfully stream-of-consciousness, wasn't it? My apologies for the rambling. :)

[snacky]

No need for apologies! Headcanon is fun! :D

Re: And now for the actual topic at hand...

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

HI CAN I LIKE ALL THESE THINGS.

My (movieverse) headcanon is that the stories of the gifts got all confused, and the Telmarine Narnians tell of how Father Christmas gave Peter a sword, and Susan her horn and bow, and Lucy her cordial and dagger, and Edmund his magic light, and that's why Caspian dragged the flashlight all over VDT.

One reason why it was a Golden Age - Lucy stopped a lot of people from dying.
askdjhalksdjhasd

[snacky]

My (movieverse) headcanon is that the stories of the gifts got all confused, and the Telmarine Narnians tell of how Father Christmas gave Peter a sword, and Susan her horn and bow, and Lucy her cordial and dagger, and Edmund his magic light, and that's why Caspian dragged the flashlight all over VDT.

AH OMG. I love this. :D :D :D

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

It probably meant that the LWW Aslan Stone Table thing is all screwy though, because Edmund is there when the kids get their gifts, and the torch is sooooo symbolic.

Maybe they pair it with Edmund and Lucy coming into Narnia first, and they say that Edmund got a torch to light the way and Lucy got a cordial to heal the Lion, and...Susan and Peter won the war?

LVDB

[(Anonymous)]

I've always thought of Aslan as a petty pagan god anyway, so I have no problem accepting the idea that he excluded Susan from Narnia.

On the broader Susan question, I kinda like the idea of a flawed, frivolous Susan. Makes her more human.

Edmund has his sneakiness, finicky temper, and occasional bouts of whiny guilt. Eustace is an intellectual, but also a bit of a know-it-all. Why can't Susan be brave, generous, self-consciously "adult", AND ALSO irresponsible and frivolous? It's not as if any of these kids had parental figures to correct them during their Narnian sojourn.

For me, Peter and Lucy are relatively one-dimensional -- great to look at from a distance, energetic, noble, etc...but not very interesting. Susan and Ed? I've always seen a bit more tension there.